Oh, just for future ref, what language is the quotes + font controls and all that scripted in? Is it forum, or HTML?

Just use the blockquote command in HTML.

… Condom + lube. It’s not that difficult.

Oh, just for future ref, what language is the quotes + font controls and all that scripted in? Is it forum, or HTML?

Chris wrote:
That same writer said that abstinence with education seemed like the best of both worlds.

Not necessarily. I had said if you are going to abstain, then I condone abstinence complimented with education instead of abstinence through ignorance.

Chris wrote:
I can agree to that to a point, and I certainly don’t think anyone should ever been forced into being sexually active if they don’t want to be, but I also think that true openess with your partner is more likely if you’re someone who already has at least some experience with sex.

Having experience with sex only makes you more open if you were previously ashamed of having sex or and/or of being a virgin. In these cases, lack of openness is a result of shame and not of lack of information.

However, what ‘true openness’ essentially comes down to, is knowing oneself and feeling free to discuss any sexual topic no matter how taboo most of society would deem it to be. This is almost impossible for the average person. ‘True openness’ is something much of society has no grasp of in many matters especially sexual. They fear what their partner may think of them if they share or that their sexuality may be undermined.

Many people in the USA are sexually repressed, whether they have sex often, are virgins, single or married. The general attitude is to not talk about sex, to just do it and hope your partner miraculously reads your mind and figures out what you want. When your heterosexual partner’s magical mind reading abilities fail them, excuse it as a gender issue instead of a communication issue. When you view this inability to be open (because of the stigma and because they do not know how to be or because they think withholding information is normal), whether a partner is a virgin or not seems almost irrelevant.

When abstinence is preached through Religion, it is necessarily done through repression. Most do not exhaust the topic of sex before their wedding day. Most in fact, barely broach it, thinking that discussion can wait until after the wedding vows. There is a certain practicality to it. If your wedding day is more than six months away, exhausting the subject will just remind you of what you want and what you cannot have . . . not yet. Think of the sexual frustration of waiting so long.

There is also the idea of sin for the religious. Consider that the stigma of sex is such that being well versed in what pleases you sexually is considered the territory of the deviants and whores. This type of mentality, only adds to the repression and makes people who may consider sex before marriage feel sinful. To make matters worse, the more they abstain from discussing sex, the better they feel about themselves. Ignorance is considered holy.

How to make abstinence even more desirable from a religious perspective? Indicate that sex after marriage makes the relationship stronger because the ‘commitment’ means you will try harder to work through sexual issues. This is not true. If you see the person before you as the love of your life, married or not, you are going to work through it. Yet, if once married you realize you made a mistake and married the wrong person, ‘working through it’ is not going to change that fact.

What you see here, is people abstaining because of fear. They fear that if they have sex and they do not like it, they will not go through with the marriage—with good reason. Marriage gives them a false sense of security. But, do you really want someone who stays with you because divorce is a legal hassle and it is easier to stay put? Or would you rather have sex, discover the person is not sexually compatible and then save yourself the legal fees of divorce?

Chris wrote:
I just happen to think that people will tend to be happier if they go out and see what else there is before settling on one person. After all, to use a rather crude anology, you don’t buy a car without test driving it.

Some people learn hands on. For those, I recommend they try as many people as possible. However, others do not need as much physical trial and error to develop a good understanding of what they want in a romantic/sexual partner. It is not quantity that is the issue. It is versatility. If you know yourself well and your first partner happens to be someone that matches your requirements close to 100% there is no need to try others to understand just how fantastic a gem you have before you.

To use your car analogy, you need not try out all the different types of cars in the lot to decide on what you want, when you can give the car salesman a full list of specifications. When that custom made car arrives, you will believe the other cars in the lot not worth your investment. That new car will fulfill all your current car needs and more.

Chris wrote:
Oh, and I forgot to add this, but no one has addressed what homosexual children are supposed to be taught as far as sex ed goes, especially in an abstinence-only enviroment.

I do not see what significant reason there could be in teaching abstinence to heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual children. It does not matter what reproductive parts you have. If you teach no sex, it means not using those reproductive parts with or on another.

I suppose if the teacher’s religious perspective is that sex with someone of the same sex is evil, they will tell the heterosexual person to wait until they are married and the homosexual/bisexual person to never have sex. If the teacher does not think same sex is evil or a sin, they should logically say to not have sex until you get married and if marriage is not legal here, go get married somewhere where it is. If you come back and your marriage is not valid here, it will not matter because it was God who married you anyway and presumably God does not invalidate marriages as soon as you step across man made geographical boundaries. If you are unfortunate to live in a place where same sex marriage is illegal and happen to be too poor to afford a plane ticket . . . you are fucked.

HotBeans wrote:
6. Quick note: Neither my wife or I feel we “settled” on each other by waiting until marriage to have sex.

You did not feel you settled because you were fortunate/wise enough to marry the right person. It was not because you waited until after sex. You would feel you settled if you waited and then discovered you married the wrong person.

Yes, the New Testament is somewhat less immoral than the Old. On the other hand, it contains the doctorine of Hell, where people are punished for eternity for finite crimes (Matthew 13:40-50, for example). That seems very evil to me. Much better to give people a chance to repent their sins after death, learn their lessons and rejoin their loved ones in Heaven.

Of course there’s other things, too. The mere notion of the Crucifiction is pretty nasty when you get down to it. Why did Jesus have to die for humanity’s sins to be given? Couldn’t God have just snapped his fingers and forgiven us? Why was the gruesomeness and blood required?

But that’s getting me slightly off track. I’ll post up a larger article on such things later. Now, back to the sex!
I don’t entirely see how masturbation without lust is possible. I mean, I suppose it could be in theory, but, well, not to get too graphic here, but most of us tend to be thinking about something/someone while we’re doing it. Surely that’s at least lusting in your heart?

And, yeah, we don’t see eye-to-eye on the teenage sex issue, but that’s ok. I’m always interested to see the places where I do agree with people, too. Emphasizing the differences can be great for debate and learning, but ultimately it’s more important to pay attention to the similarities.

1. The topic of the validity and various interpretations of the Bible is a massive one. One that would take way more time than either of us have. But a quick comment for you. When interpreting the Bible in is important to understand both the historical and spiritual context of each chapter, verse and audience.

When Jesus came to earth he estabished a new way of living right. He was the new standard by which to live. What you are bringing up (slavery, women being property, clothing of more than 2 kinds of clothes, stoning) are all old testiment laws and traditions. you won’t find these things in Jesus’ teaching. He came to bring love, grace and forgiveness to others. Thus I think it’s unfair and inaccurate to pick some random verses out of the Old Testiment and say that they still apply or they are what God is staying we should do.

2. I’ll take a look at the Blogging the Bible stuff. Sounds interesting. I think we agree about sex working best within guidelines, we just disagree on what those happen to be. The masturbation thing can be debated. There isn’t one collective “Christian” thought on this. But what the Bible is clear on is not letting lust consume your heart. Can masturbation be done with out lust? I’d say yes.

3. Yep, for a vast majority of people, the 1st time(s) they have sex aren’t very good. It takes practice. But I would argue, would you rather have a less than steller 1st experience with someone who is committed to you, who is learning with you, and will be gracious and loving? Or with a person whom you don’t feel as safe with, and that you don’t know if ti’s long term? I’d say the former is preferable.

4. I think we still don’t see eye to eye on encouraging young people to experiment and have sex. Big picture, teen sexual activity does far more damage than good, in my opinon. Also, the notion of “safe sex” is not really accurate. “safer sex” maybe, as is safer than no protection. But having sex aways brings the possibility of pregnancy, disease and emotional/physical repercussions. And unfortunately, kids often to not have the wisdom to be as discerning as adults would.

5. Chicago is a rockin’ town. You must visit, esp. in the summer.

6. Quick note: Neither my wife or I feel we “settled” on each other by waiting until marriage to have sex.

Thanks again for the conversation,
Benjamin (HotBeans)