Badger’s Bible Project – Genesis 1:1 – Genesis 18:33


God, creating things.

God, creating things.

In the beginging, God created the Heavens and the Earth. – Genesis 1:1

You know, the Bible is many things. Many of them unmentionable. However I will say this for it; as introductory phrases go, you can’t beat that one. Though it does beg one obvious question: clearly this wasn’t the very begining. After all, where did God come from? This is never explained.

But as openings go, this one is top-notch. Unfortunately, it quickly sinks down into what was, apparently, God’s “To-Do” List, as we get treated to a multitude of all the things God Did on His Summer Vacation. Finally we get down to the next interesting bit.

So God created Man in his own image; in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. – Genesis 1:27

Apparently God created people here, though the text is somewhat vague (close-captioned for the sarcasm impaired). Interesting fact: God apparently created Male and Female in his image. Both. Not just male. What does this say about God?

Describing the area around Eden, we found out that four rivers spring out from it. One of which is, apparently, the Euphrates (Genesis 2:14). Sounds like all we need to do now in Iraq is follow it, and we should get to Eden.

Then we get to some more good stuff just a few verses later.

[B]ut of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day you eat of it, you shall surely die. – Genesis 2:17

Right, so, in other words, do what you’re told. Of course, one could make the point here that the first humans wouldn’t have known eating the fruit would be wrong. How could they? They don’t know good from evil yet. Further, how would they know what it means to die, since they wouldn’t have seen anyone do so yet?

Now onto the second story of the creation of woman.

… he took one of [Adam's] ribs and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man he made into a woman, and he brought her to the man. – Genesis 2:21 – 22

Right, so, from what we read here, there’s no ethical problem with cloning. Obviously. I mean, Eve was, in this version of creation, a clone of Adam. Logically God would have no problem with cloning if he did it himself.

Shortly after the eating of the forbidden fruit, God comes looking for Adam.

Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?” – Genesis 3:9

Well, so much for omniscence. God shows his lack of knowledge again in a few moments.

And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?” – Genesis 3:12

Man, no one can torture a sentence like the writers of the Bible. Anyhow, so, yeah, in the space of just a couple verses, God fails to know three things any decently omniscent diety would know. Now, maybe he was testing Adam and Eve to see what they’d say but, again, since he’s supposed to be omniscent, he would know.

Now we move onto the delightful story of Cain and Abel.

[but God] did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenence fell. – Genesis 4:5

Basically, Cain gave God fruits and vegetables and Abel gave him grilled meat. Now, me, I’d rather have the meat myself, but if someone offers me free food, I’ll take it with a polite thank you.

After killing his brother, Cain is made to wander the Earth. You know, like that one guy. He concerned people might kill him for what he’s done (though what people these are, aren’t mentioned. Does God have a second family hidden somewhere?). He therefore puts the Mark of Cain on his face.

And the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him. – Genesis 4:15

Believe it or not, that one little passage has caused much misery in the world, being used to justify all kinds of nastiness. Anyhow, despite whatever is on him, Cain manages to find a wife.

And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city and called the city after the name of his son – Enoch. – Genesis 4:17

Ah, this is one of those little things that pops up sometimes in Sunday schools. “If Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel were the only people alive, who did Cain marry?” It’s a good question that never gets answered, just like wondering who might kill Cain, if there’s only the four of them. Of course, we can say, “Well, God must’ve created other people.” True, that’s logically what he would’ve done, I guess. Never gets mentioned, though.

Also, the city reference… how would anyone even know what a city was at this point? Four people do not a city make. Assume God made Cain’s wife, and add his son and that gives us a city of three (since Abel, Adam and Eve weren’t there). To make matters worse, we find out shortly after this that Enoch now has a child. Wonder who the mother could’ve been?

This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. – Genesis 5:1

A few years ago, I read a book that described parts of the Bible as reading like an Israeli telephone book. I see what the author (or in this case, Holy Ghost-Writer), meant.

At the end of this, we come to the next relevant bit.

And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham and Japhet. – Genesis 5:32

500 years old? Viva Viagra!

And the Lord was sorry he made Man on the Earth… – Genesis 6:6

Ok, well, omniscence again, hello… God knew how this was going to turn out. Why did he create Man in the first place? Anyhow, he decides to do a little something.

So the Lord said, “I will destroy Man whom I have created from the face of the Earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry I have made them.” – Genesis 6:7

So, God gets pissed at Man and decides not only to kill every single person on the planet (even the newborn babies who are, one would think, blameless), but he also decides to off all the animals. Well, except fish, I would guess. They were probably quite pleased!

Anyhow, flood happens. God has a grand ole time going along undoing everything he did. Is it just me, or does he strike you as a frustrated gamer, always reloading Sims from a save point, after having done horrible things to his Sims? Anyhow, in all the fun of death and destruction, God seems to have forgotten something.

Then God remembered Noah… – Genesis 8:1

Damn that short-term memory loss! And yet another blow to the “God knows all!” theory. Anyhow, once having saved Noah and his family God, always up for a good barbeque, enjoys the smell of a burnt offering (Genesis 8:21). Apparently Noah protected at least some of these animals so God could have them sacrificed to him later.

Moving on, we come to another interesting bit.

But you shall not eat the flesh with its life, that is, its blood. – Genesis 9:4

I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure this is where the Jehova’s Witnesses get their thing against blood transfusions. Anyone know if I’m right there? Seems odd to me to relate the two, given that there’s a difference between eating blood and having it transfused, but ok. Of course, I wonder how this works out later with things like Communion. You know, “This is my blood”?

More things, like the Tower of Babel, happen. Then we get to the introduction of a slightly important Biblical figure; Abram, later to be called Abraham. At one point he’s traveling around in Egypt with his wife, and he has a conversation with her.

“Please say you are my sister, that it may be well with me for your sake, and that I may live because of you.” – Genesis 12:13

… huh? This same trick gets repeated by Abram in Genesis 20:2, and I really don’t get it. He seems to think the people he is visiting will kill him and take his wife if they know he’s married to her. But if she’s just his (presumably single), sister, then they’ll leave her alone. What? I don’t get it. Can someone explain the logic here, please?

Moving on, we find the explanation for much of Jewish history.

Then [God] said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs… – Genesis 15:13

From what follows, I’m assuming we’re talking about the Jews spending a few years as the slaves of Egyptians (something there’s no outside proof of). Still, it works rather well for most of Jewish history.

Now we come to a fun rhetorical question:

“Is anything too hard for the Lord?…” – Genesis 18:14

Well, aside from the stuff up above that indicates “Yes”, we also find out in Judges 1:19 that God can’t overcome iron chariots. Nothing is said about him being unable to microwave a burrito that is so hot he himself cannot eat it.

Genesis 18:33 ends with God getting ready to drop the hammer down on Sodom and Gomorrah! Tune in next time to see my thoughts on them, and remember: What happens in Sodom stays in Sodom!

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35 Responses to “Badger’s Bible Project – Genesis 1:1 – Genesis 18:33”

  1. scaryreasoner Says:

    Off to a nice start.

    I’ve thought about the Euphrates as well. I mean, we just have to look for a cherub with a flaming sword that turns every way, or something right? And though most of the garden may have died, one would expect that the Tree of Life, the one about which god is supposed to have said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever,” surely that tree, the fruit of which give eternal life, surely that tree has not died, right? So, we just have to find it. Again, just look for the cherub with the flaming sword, somewhere around the Euphrates.

    I’m surprised you brushed by the Tower of Babel so quickly. Clearly it’s a just-so story which is supposed to explain the origin of languages. It’s interesting to notice though that neither English, German, Itialian, nor Spanish, to name just four languages, existed at the time of Jesus. So we know empirically that an explanation like the Tower of Babel is not needed. We know how new languages form.

    I suppose there must be plenty of people who view the 9/11 attack as a modern day Tower of Babel story. Two very tall towers, full of all the people of the world, communicating with each other, but getting knocked down in a terrible way. One might even wonder if the Tower of Babel story formed a part of the motivation of the attackers, if they might have been imagining themselves to be doing God’s work, knocking down the 2nd (and 3rd) “Towers of Babel.”

  2. Chris Says:

    Yeah, that’s true about Babel. I left it out because, to me, it seemed to just be another basic “Here’s why things are as they are” myth, akin to what I’d find in the Greek or Norse myths. Its interesting on that level, but not much else. Though it does raise the question of why God didn’t just watch the humans at their labors and go, “Yeah, whatever,” then move Heaven higher so they couldn’t reach him. Kind of a religious version of “Keep Away”, I guess. :)

  3. Chris Says:

    Though on language, I do find myself wondering how long it is before we get to the language such great families as Indo-European came from. Perhaps we’ll find humanity did, indeed, at one point speak only one language from which all others are descended. I have a feeling it’d be a bit older than anything the Bible pictures, though.

  4. Susan Says:

    While I don’t always agree with you, your posts are well-thought out and clearly articulated. You would have rocked on a debate team!

  5. M James Says:

    first I would like to answer your skepticism as in that God works in mysterious ways. Now… lets get to the nitty gritty.
    1. Dont credit that same old “other myths said it therefore it is false” type of thinking especially when those myths were made after the Bible
    2. Cain probably married his sister or a close relative. The Bible forbid close relations in Leviticus, not in the time of Genesis. Remember Abraham’s half sister was his wife. (If you knew this…)
    3. When you say that the Lord wasnt powerful enough to take on the chariots of iron. That is incorrect. The Lord was with Judah. Like he is with all of us.
    4 God owns everyone Men Women Children, and babies. Remember he works in mysterious ways
    To Conclude: I believe that the truth that you are looking for or evidence (whatever you call it) isnt the way to go with it. Find ir in your heart to have faith, try to join a church Like the Bible says, O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.( Psalm 34:8)

    Its your go!!!!!!

  6. Chris Says:

    Thank you for your reply! Let me take your points one at a time.

    1. Some other myths were formed after the Bible, some came before. From what I recall, the Epic of Gilgamesh predates much of the Bible, though I may be mistaken.

    2. Yes, logically, Cain would’ve married a sister or close relative. Tellingly, however, there’s no mention of either in the Bible. I hadn’t cottoned onto the fact that Sarah was Abraham’s half-sister. Clearly I need to go back and read about that again.

    3. But the Bible says, specifically, that the enemy couldn’t be overcome because they had chariots of iron.

    4. I am no one’s slave or property, and the “God works in mysterious ways”, while a tempting explaination in some ways, is ultimately unsatisfactory from a discussion level.

    Lastly, I am reading the Bible. In theory, I shouldn’t need anything more than that to become a Jew or a Christian (and only a little more than that to become a Muslim). Why would I have to join a church to complete the conversion process?

    Thanks again for the feedback! :)

  7. Phil Says:

    Chris, I am intrigued at this series, so I hope you won’t mind if I try to offer my opinions on your points, one at a time.

    You say, “Where did God come from? This is never explained.” You are partially right. It isn’t “explained”, so to speak, right up top, because the writer takes it for granted that the audience believed in God. His story fell on Jewish ears. No need to expalin at this point. However – the Bible (Old Testament and New) does give explanation of God’s “origin”, albeit an explanation that may not satisfy a person already having written off that which cannot be scientifically proven. Try Psalm 90:2 for starters: ” Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.” God has no beginning or end, which, you have to admit, if it really is true that there is a God, it would be pretty disappointing if He wasn’t eternal and all-powerful.

    The fact that God created Male and Female in His image says a ton about Him… and us. It reveals that His character does not only encompass manly traits but womanly traits as well. Lest you think I’m talking in physical terms, remember that the Bible teaches that God is Spirit (John 4).

    I think the tree of knowledge of good and evil may be a metaphor. As I said before, there is a lot of the Bible that is poetic and figurative. We have to interpret it by the other parts of the Bible.

    God’s question to Adam, “Where are you?” doesn’t indicate ignorance – if you look at the word in the Hebrew, it gives a clearer indication of tense. Instead, “Where are you?” is symptomatic of a broken relationship. Adam and Eve tried to hide from the One who really is omniscient. And their progeny are hiding still today. :)

    “Who told you you were naked?……” Again, I would say that the majority of the time what God says to us isn’t for His benefit but for ours.

    “God remembered Noah” – different kind of remember. You probably would be better to switch to a different, more modern translation of the Bible, one that uses current language to get closer to the original meaning based on scholarly study.

    Egyptian enslavement of Israelites – actually, there IS proof of this outside of the Bible. Archaeological findings and other historical documents – I need to go find them. I’ll post them. Do a google search…

    Clearly the verse about not being able to drive out the people with iron chariots is talking about the PEOPLE and not their God. Look at the original Hebrew.

    Keep it coming, man.

  8. Graeme Smith Says:

    Chris,

    Reading the Bible should be enough to bring people to faith in Jesus. However, if you believe it is true then it is impossible to ignore that the church, with all its failings, is the instrument through which God chooses to work in the world. This means that if you follow Jesus then you can’t act that out in anything other than a fellowship of believers. Joining the church doesn’t complete the conversion experience it is simply the only result of a real conversion experience.

  9. Chris Says:

    Thanks both of you for commenting! I love to hear people who have viewpoints that aren’t mine. :)

    First, Phil:

    It is illogical that God would’ve always existed. Such a notion makes no sense. Surely he would’ve come from somewhere.

    I do understand, of course, that the original language of the Bible was Hebrew. I do not understand, however, why God would insist on not having 100% accurate translations into all languages. Surely some people miss out on salvation this way? I mean, if I have a copy of a Bible that says “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”, and someone else has one that says, “Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live”, surely one of us has the wrong information.

    I like to see any evidence you have for the Hebrews having been slaves in Egypt. As far as I’m aware, there isn’t any.

    Now, Graeme:

    Why on Earth would God choose to work through such an incredibly flawed organization as the Catholic Church? Why wouldn’t he simply work with a group that does 100% good and no evil?

    Thanks again, gentlemen!

  10. Phil Says:

    Thanks, Chris. If God came from somewhere, He wouldn’t be God, would He?

    As far as some people “missing out” on salvation because of flawed translations, I think you’ve misunderstood the point of the gospel a little. We aren’t saved – rescued and delivered from the evil in our own hearts – by any text on a piece of paper. We’re saved by Jesus. Knowing Him IS eternal life. :)

    I believe God is a God who speaks, not a God who spoke. I believe He wants to speak to you; and THAT, more than just through the written word. His Spirit speaks to those listening, and He is found by those who seek Him with their whole hearts.

  11. Chris Says:

    Yeah, I don’t buy the whole “no start, no end” thing. But ok.

    Meantime, if God speaks, and therefore exists, let him come to me and sit down for a chat. I see no reason why I should believe in his existence on faith, when all that we know about the universe on a scientific level indicates he doesn’t exist.

  12. Phil Says:

    Hey, Chris, I just want to say that Jesus is the truth. I’m not claiming to know everything, or even that everything CAN be known definitively. All I’m saying is that if you continue this project, and you get to the words of Jesus in the New Testament – I’d recommend starting with the Gospel of John – I think you might hear Him speaking.

  13. Chris Says:

    Alrighty, and I can respect that opinion, but can you offer any proof that Jesus even existed, much less anything that proves he is “the truth” (an adjective that seems somewhat vague to me)?

  14. Phil Says:

    Yeah, man. There’s a whole heap of proof that Jesus existed, even outside of Biblical texts. Try a guy named Josephus for starters.

    You say that “the truth” seems a vague adjective to you. And yet, by your very venture into Badger’s Bible project, you are saying that you are looking for some kind of truth. Your theory is that the Bible is NOT the inspired Word of God. You would say that is the truth, correct?

    If we have THAT as our starting point, that there definitely IS something called truth – and that, by that definition, there are other things that are not true… Only then can we delve further into what exactly IS true and what is not true (false/lie). Can we agree that truth exists?

    If so, what makes something true? It’s certainly not because you or I declare it to be so. If I hold a red ball in front of you and say to you, “This is a blue ball,” it would not make that ball blue. In the same way, just because a man named Jesus existed or even said, “I am the truth,” that would not make Him true. We would need to define that by some kind of evidence, correct?

    What kind of evidence would we look for? Maybe that He did what He said He came to do? Or maybe by the fulfillment of prophecies about Him? I think a good assessment would be whether or not He contradicted Himself.

    Still, just because He was a man of integrity, perhaps He was just a narcissist in the grandest sense, full of Himself so to speak. (Although I’m not sure a narcissist would have willingly given up His life for others.) In that case, we’d need to measure His life by what others said about Him, no? Or at least by the impact He left on the world around Him?

    Maybe it’s possible that a group of 12 men (and several women, I might add) just made this story up about a guy named Jesus; that they invented this story out of thin air or exaggerated it to such an extent that it isn’t even recognizable as the real thing anymore. They fooled so many people that, eventually, they began to believe the story themselves, resurrection and all.

    Now, this version might be believable. Except then, you’d have to believe (and there are excellent extra-biblical sources for this) that these men and women were so committed to this lie (or maybe just so gullible) that not only were they willing to live every part of their lives for Him and in obedience to Him, but they were also willing to die for it. Most of Jesus’ original followers ended up dying for their faith. That doesn’t make it true, but it certainly does lend it credibility, wouldn’t you say?

    Doesn’t make it the truth, though, right? :) After all, people have died for all sorts of things? So, how bout bringing it down to a personal level?

    All the things that Jesus said about the human heart. How about taking those statements, hold them up to your own heart and see how they stand? That may seem subjective, but maybe it’s worth a shot. Who knows…

  15. Chris Says:

    I’ll address all this in more detail later. I did want to say right now, though, that the Josephus statements about Jesus have been concluded to be forgeries added to the text later. Even most Biblical scholars agree with that at this point. If I remember correctly, even the Vatican has said they are forgeries.
    I’ll give the rest of your comment the more meaty reply it deserves later, when I’m awake. :)

  16. Chris Says:

    Right! Now I have the time to devote to a proper response. Oh, and here’s a reference to the Josephus forgeries for you: http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/camel2.html#josephus <— the article as a whole is worth reading, but that part in particular is about everyone’s favorite historian!

    Now, onto the greater points of your comment.

    …by your very venture into Badger’s Bible project, you are saying that you are looking for some kind of truth. Your theory is that the Bible is NOT the inspired Word of God. You would say that is the truth, correct?

    Actually, I’m venturing into the project for several reasons. One is the principle of “know thine enemy”. It’s much easier for me to fight back against theist tyrany if I know the source material. Second, it’s something that’s important to our place and time, so I should know what’s in the book. Lastly, it’s something of an endurance project for me. To see if I can actually start this and stick to it. It’s been a tough go (Exodus is hideous, but I know it’s a walk in the park comparied to Leviticus), but I’m managing.

    And yes, you are right, I do not believe it is the inspired word of God. This is mostly because I don’t think God exists, but even if he did, I’d like to think he wouldn’t put out a book that shows him being as evil as he is just in the parts I’ve read so far. Bad PR and all that. Everyone admits there is good and evil in the Bible, but were it a truly holy book showing a god worthy of worship, wouldn’t it be all good and no evil?

    Maybe it’s possible that a group of 12 men (and several women, I might add) just made this story up about a guy named Jesus; that they invented this story out of thin air or exaggerated it to such an extent that it isn’t even recognizable as the real thing anymore. They fooled so many people that, eventually, they began to believe the story themselves, resurrection and all.

    Or maybe it’s possible they themselves were made up. As far as I’m aware, there’s no extra-Biblical evidence they existed, either. Given that the Gospels weren’t written down until 40+ years after the events allegedly happen, they aren’t even first-hand accounts.

    Now, this version might be believable. Except then, you’d have to believe (and there are excellent extra-biblical sources for this) that these men and women were so committed to this lie (or maybe just so gullible) that not only were they willing to live every part of their lives for Him and in obedience to Him, but they were also willing to die for it. Most of Jesus’ original followers ended up dying for their faith. That doesn’t make it true, but it certainly does lend it credibility, wouldn’t you say?

    Being willing to die for something doesn’t make it credible. If the apostles existed, and were willing to die for what they believed, that doesn’t mean what they believed was true. Consider the morons who killed themselves a few years back to catch a ride on a comet. Consider the Muslim terrorists who kill themselves in the name of Allah. Presumably you don’t believe the Koran is a credible book, yet they do.

    All the things that Jesus said about the human heart. How about taking those statements, hold them up to your own heart and see how they stand? That may seem subjective, but maybe it’s worth a shot. Who knows…

    Well, subjective experience is not evidence. Objective can be, but we aren’t seeing any of that. Besides, just because whomever created Jesus put some good words into his mouth, that doesn’t mean anything. Shakespeare put some awfully good words into the mouth of Hamlet, but it doesn’t mean the Dane existed. I’ve thought some of Pratchett’s books made great commentary on human nature, but I don’t think Vimes, Weatherwax, et al, are actually real.

    Your turn! (I appreciate the discussion, btw)

  17. Bret Says:

    Here’s a debate on God . . . they bring up the challenge of religion and science and many, many, others . . . it’s 1 hour and 45 minutes long . . .

  18. Bret Says:

    Sorry, I tried to imbed this but it didn’t work. This is the debate on God . . .

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1336746820/bctid1329234778

  19. Chris Says:

    When I try to go there, it says the video is no longer available. :(

  20. Bret Says:

    Here’s a teaching to download. . . Scroll down to “Genesis and the Big Bang” (on the left). He covers the “time” issue of Gen 1:1 . . . if you’re into spiritualism/mysticism to any degree this will blow your mind.

    http://www.classicsinai.com

  21. Bret Says:

    Chris,

    Sorry you couldn’t see the video . . . I watched it last night . . . it was pretty frustrating. . .

    Rabbi David Wolpe argued with Sam Harris about whether or not God exists. I watch for a little over an hour and got bored. One argument that Rabbi Wolpe never used was personal experience. We know God exists from experience with God.

    The questions you raise in your above post aren’t really questions if you don’t believe that God exists. Rabbi Wolpe appeared to get frustrated at times because the Atheist (Sam Harris) always had another question. Harris’ goal is to disprove God.

    If you raise questions only to disprove the existence of God then you always be satisfied in your own mind. However, if you raise questions in order to know God and seek Him with an honest and open heart you will find Him.

    In Prov 8:17 wisdom cries out, “I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.” Seeking wisdom begins with the Lord.

    Jer 29:13 “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,” declares the LORD.

    On the contrary, Psalm 10:4 says “In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.”

    God is not found by those that don’t want to find him. Even though God is clearly seen in what he has made (Rom 1:20)
    many choose not to see Him.

    The question isn’t “Is there a God?” The question is “Do you want to find Him?”

    Blessings,

    Bret

  22. Chris Says:

    Actually, the question is “Is there a God?” The burden of proof is on those who claim there is and, sadly, personal experience is not valid objective proof (obviously, by its very nature it cannot be). I suspect that’s why the rabbi didn’t use it as part of his arguement.

    I’ve heard about this debate and always wanted to see it, so I’ll make sure to watch it when I can. I certainly appreciate you sending the link!

  23. Bret Says:

    But what if there was a God? Hypothetically . . . what if there really is a God? What then? Could you prove it? If so . . . how?

  24. Chris Says:

    If you can’t prove it, why waste your time believing in it? But ok, as far as proving it goes. Uhm. Find me a miracle that is clearly such and has no other reasonable explanation. Find the Ark of the Covenant, with the Ten Commandments inside. Even those won’t prove much, but they’ll help.
    Check this site for other proofs that might be good: http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/theistguide.html

  25. patrick1979 Says:

    Quote: After all, where did God come from? This is never explained.

    God is and always will be. A computer can only understand or calculate what is put into it. A creation can only comprehend with the ability and capacity that their creator gave them. The Bible does give an explanation in several places. The explaination just doesn’t line up with our thinking. We can’t comprehend it. Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean you should reject it.

    Quote: They don’t know good from evil yet. Further, how would they know what it means to die, since they wouldn’t have seen anyone do so yet?

    If God told them not to eat of the fruit of that one particular tree, then they know not to eat it. Adam and Eve weren’t stupid idiots rolling around in mud. Understand that the Lord and Adam/Eve had a relationship. The Bible is quoting in a literary form to give the reader an understanding. I’m sure their conversations went beyond what you’ve read. If God can create the universe, he can teach his creation what it means to die.

    Quote: Right, so, from what we read here, there’s no ethical problem with cloning. Obviously. I mean, Eve was, in this version of creation, a clone of Adam. Logically God would have no problem with cloning if he did it himself.

    This is strange statement. Eve was not a clone. If this were the case, then Adam was a clone of the mud. That’s obscene. God’s life giving breath created Adam into a living being, in which the same life giving breath would have formed his rib/flesh, or whatever it was into the first woman.

    Quote: Man, no one can torture a sentence like the writers of the Bible. Anyhow, so, yeah, in the space of just a couple verses, God fails to know three things any decently omniscent diety would know. Now, maybe he was testing Adam and Eve to see what they’d say but, again, since he’s supposed to be omniscent, he would know.

    First thing you need to do is understand Hebrew terminology and their method of speech. God was not asking about geographical location, but rather spiritually and relationship wise. Of course he knew where Adam was at.

    Quote: Basically, Cain gave God fruits and vegetables and Abel gave him grilled meat. Now, me, I’d rather have the meat myself, but if someone offers me free food, I’ll take it with a polite thank you.

    You’ve misunderstood the text. Abel wanted to please God, and proved it with the best of his flock. Abel recognized the purpose of sacrifice and what it meant and symbollized. Where do you think God got the skins of animals that he clothed Adam and Eve with? This is where the tradition of sacrifice began. Cain was selfish, and did things his way and on his terms.. and in his time. He just brought some of his stuff, after a while.. There was no heart behind it. God requires our first-fruits.

    Quote: Does God have a second family hidden somewhere?). He therefore puts the Mark of Cain on his face.

    We don’t know what the “mark” was. 1 passage from Genesis to another can denote many years. I’m sure Cain was aware that he would see many generations before his death, and his name would have been thrown all over the place by then. The process of multiplication is easy to understand in Genesis. People lived longer, and had tons of children, who had children, who had children.. And yes, they had relations with relatives. How else would the process begin? It was later after the earth was more populated that God commanded mankind to turn away from “incest.”

    Quote: “Well, God must’ve created other people.” True, that’s logically what he would’ve done, I guess. Never gets mentioned, though.

    As said before, this is a wrong statement. If you have a chance, grab a chronological Bible with the dates and you’ll further understand the process of population.

    Quote: Ok, well, omniscence again, hello… God knew how this was going to turn out. Why did he create Man in the first place? Anyhow, he decides to do a little something.

    God didn’t create puppets. He created human beings with the ability to choose. Once again, understand the Hebrew and how it is expressed. It wasn’t, “Oh crap I made a mistake.” It was, “My heart is grieved.” Just because babies died on earth doesn’t mean they disappeared into no-where land. They are with him forever.

    Quote: Damn that short-term memory loss! And yet another blow to the “God knows all!” theory. Anyhow, once having saved Noah and his family God, always up for a good barbeque, enjoys the smell of a burnt offering (Genesis 8:21). Apparently Noah protected at least some of these animals so God could have them sacrificed to him later.

    To remember doesn’t mean you forgot first. I remember when I was a little kid. I’ve never forgotten. Remember means to keep in mind, or bring to mind. It is possible to remember things you have forgotten, but this isn’t the case in it’s context.

    Quote: I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure this is where the Jehova’s Witnesses get their thing against blood transfusions. Anyone know if I’m right there? Seems odd to me to relate the two, given that there’s a difference between eating blood and having it transfused, but ok. Of course, I wonder how this works out later with things like Communion. You know, “This is my blood”?

    If you imagine a world with no sin, and no death – the first presentation of eating an animal would be pretty strange. It’s normal to us, because we are born into that type of world. As far as Communion? It is a symbolizes receiving what Jesus did for us – Communion is fellowship/relationship. You should read in the gospel of John when Jesus explained what he meant. He said, “My words are spiritual, the flesh profits nothing. It is the spirit that gives life” That was his response to the people who had one similar to yours.

    Quote: “Please sat you are my sister, that it may be well with me for your sake, and that I may live because of you.” – Genesis 12:13

    Quote: … huh? This same trick gets repeated by Abram in Genesis 20:2, and I really don’t get it. He seems to think the people he is visiting will kill him and take his wife if they know he’s married to her. But if she’s just his (presumably single), sister, then they’ll leave her alone. What? I don’t get it. Can someone explain the logic here, please?

    You’re right – he was afraid someone would kill him and take his wife. You’re right – If he was just “brother” they would be less encouraged to remove him from the picture. Pharoah wasn’t very friendly. At least that one wasn’t..

    Quote: “Is anything too hard for the Lord?…” – Genesis 18:14

    Quote: Well, aside from the stuff up above that indicates “Yes”, we also find out in Judges 1:19 that God can’t overcome iron chariots. Nothing is said about him being unable to microwave a burrito that is so hot he himself cannot eat it.

    Null argument. God’s ultimate purpose prevails. The creator of the universe could wipe all of us out in a snap.

    At the end of your comments thus far you said.

    Quote: If you can’t prove it, why waste your time believing in it?

    What about Noah’s Ark that was found in Turkey 6,000 feet in the mountains of Ararat exactly like the Bible said. Same dimensions.. given the fact weather beat the crap out of it for many years. The wood inside had no rings in it. Rings come from Seasons when a tree does all that sappy stuff and grows. The Bible says that a mist covered the earth which produced a perfect green-house effect, and the seasons were perfect – thus no rings in trees.

    What about the testimonies of changed lives all over the world, including mine? What about the fact that we have eyes to see and ears to hear? That we exist period – that’s amazing, and completely unexplainable by science. Science only has theories, with very few “laws.”

    Here’s one for you. Man’s understanding of layers in the earth denote millions of years. They recently dug up a fish with it’s head in one layer, and the rest in the other layer. Now either that fish is millions of years old, or we have a theory issue.

    What about people who have been raised from the dead, physically? Do your research, this has happened in the name of Jesus. You’re probably laughing at that.. But seriously, dig and you’ll find it. THings like this don’t get published often. If they did, it would cause man to recognize GOd, and thus be responsable and accountable to their creator. This is exactly why people do everything in their power to try to disprove God. No God – Live as you want. God – Accountability. What they don’t realize is God is a loving Father who truly desires a personal relationship with us all, including you Chris. All you have to do is ask.

    How many eyes witnesses does it take in a court of law to convict a person? The answer is 1. There were over 500 witnesses of seeing Jesus after his crucifiction, and many of which were highly credible. What about Saul of Tarsus who was a persecuter of the Church one day, and immediately is becomes the most passionate Apostle who wrote most of the new Testament?

    How about the parting of the Red Seas and the recent discovery? They found a straight line in the sea with chariots, bones, and all kinds of weapons buried at the bottom in the dirt.. in a straight path.

    God has revealed himself through his creation. If there is a painting, t here is a painter. If there is a design, there is a designer. If there is a creation, there is a creator.

    And he loves you. ;)

    Patrick

  26. Chris Says:

    w00t, now that’s a lot to respond to! Give me a day or so to get my resources together and give this the reply it deserves! :)

    Oh, and just to help you a bit, you can type blockquote (with a on each side), if you want to show a quote and then type the same thing only with a slash in front of the word, thus /blockquote (again, a on each side).

  27. patrick1979 Says:

    LOL – Thanks Chris. I’m new to blogging.

  28. Chris Says:

    We were all new at one point. :) It was weeks before I figured out the quoting thing myself!

  29. AV1 Says:

    Chris,
    As a Christian and not intended to be disrespectful in any way, curious that you would say that the Holy Bible is many unmentionable things. The comment is an interesting one and not clearly understood at this time. You say that it is never clearly explained where God came from. The answer is quite simple God is the Alpha and the Omega… The beginning and the end of all there is was or ever will be.

    Alpha, the first letter of the Greek alphabet, as Omega is the last. These letters occur in the text of Rev 1:8, 11; Rev 21:6; Rev 22:13, and are represented by “Alpha” and “Omega” respectively (omitted in R.V., Rev 1:11). They mean “the first and last.” (Compare Heb 12:2; Isa 41:4; Isa 44:6; Rev 1:11, 17; Rev 2:8) In the symbols of the early Christian Church these two letters are frequently combined with the cross or with Christ’s monogram to denote his divinity.
    —Easton’s Illustrated Dictionary

    Consider this while you gaze upon Michelangelo’s David, the person next to you says, “Wow, it’s amazing what wind and water erosion can accomplish over millions of years!” You consider such a statement ridiculous, and reply that an artist, Michelangelo, produced the work of art.

    Now continue to imagine the absurd scene as the person challenges your claim, and insisted that your belief in Michelangelo was simply a myth. History books provide the biographical information about the artist, but the person easily questions the reliability of the written testimony.

    The issue here is really a simple one. The illustration just given is not only fiction, but we can hardly imagine such a scene. The evidence is the existence of the art demands the existence of an artist.

    Now ask yourself, “If the mere marble form of David could not have come into being apart from an intelligent creator, then how much more does the real, living David demand a Creator?” This living breathing human being with a self-sustaining organ system and eyes more complex than any optical instrument created by man must have as its source a Creator superior to itself. Just as the artist, Michelangelo produced the work of art.
    The God of Scripture is the Superior Creator of mankind.

    In the New Testament, the book of John says this:

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:1-4 KJV

    You are curious to understand Genesis 1:27. Understanding is easier when taken in context.
    Creation man in the image of God
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. KJV

    Notes for Verse 26
    The last stage in the progress of creation being now reached — God said, Let us make man — words which show the peculiar importance of the work to be done, the formation of a creature, who was to be God’s representative, clothed with authority and rule as visible head and monarch of the world.

    In our image, after our likeness — This was a peculiar distinction, the value attached to which appears in the words being twice mentioned. And in what did this image of God consist? Not in the erect form or features of man, not in his intellect, for the devil and his angels are, in this respect, far superior; not in his immortality, for he has not, like God, a past as well as a future eternity of being; but in the moral dispositions of his soul, commonly called original righteousness (Ec 7:29). As the new creation is only a restoration of this image, the history of the one throws light on the other; and we are informed that it is renewed after the image of God in knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness (Col 3:10 Eph 4:24).
    Notes for Verse 28
    Verse 28. Be fruitful, &c. — The human race in every country and age has been the offspring of the first pair. Amid all the varieties found among men, some black, some copper-colored, others white, the researches of modern science lead to a conclusion, fully accordant with the sacred history, that they are all of one species and of one family (Ac 17:26). What power in the word of God! “He spake and it was done. He commanded and all things stood fast” [Ps 33:9]. “Great and manifold are thy works, Lord God Almighty! in wisdom hast thou made them all” [Ps 104:24]. We admire that wisdom, not only in the regular progress of creation, but in its perfect adaptation to the end. God is represented as pausing at every stage to look at His work. No wonder He contemplated it with complacency. Every object was in its right place, every vegetable process going on in season, every animal in its structure and instincts suited to its mode of life and its use in the economy of the world. He saw everything that He had made answering the plan which His eternal wisdom had conceived; and, “Behold it was very good” [Ge 1:31].
    —Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

    You also ask what this says about God… Clearly, He is the Creator of mankind. Consider this, two males or two females do not produce a child. To procreate requires a male and female. The depth of knowledge and the wisdom of God is immeasurable in human terms.
    You are correct Scripture does provide the location of the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2:11-14 and which is now hidden from mankind due to the choice made by man.
    The garden of Eden, and the river thereof
    8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. 15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Here are three links to maps for study should you choose to do so:
    http://www.kjvbible.org/rivers_of_the_garden_of_eden.html
    http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/asia_minor_1140.jpg
    http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/asia_minor_1849.jpg

    Ge 8- 17. THE GARDEN OF EDEN
    Notes for Verse 8
    Verse 8. Eden — was probably a very extensive region in Mesopotamia, distinguished for its natural beauty and the richness and variety of its produce. Hence its name, signifying “pleasantness.” God planted a garden eastward, an extensive park, a paradise, in which the man was put to be trained under the paternal care of his Maker to piety and usefulness.
    Notes for Verse 9
    Verse 9. tree of life — so called from its symbolic character as a sign and seal of immortal life. Its prominent position where it must have been an object of daily observation and interest, was admirably fitted to keep man habitually in mind of God and futurity.

    tree of the knowledge of good and evil — so called because it was a test of obedience by which our first parents were to be tried, whether they would be good or bad, obey God or break His commands.
    Notes for Verse 15
    Verse 15. put the man into the garden of Eden to dress it — not only to give him a pleasant employment, but to place him on his probation, and as the title of this garden, the garden of the Lord (Ge 13:10 Eze 28:13), indicates, it was in fact a temple in which he worshipped God, and was daily employed in offering the sacrifices of thanksgiving and praise.

    Verse 17. thou shalt not eat of it . . . thou shalt surely die — no reason assigned for the prohibition, but death was to be the punishment of disobedience. A positive command like this was not only the simplest and easiest, but the only trial to which their fidelity could be exposed.
    —Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

    It is not a “do what you are told” situation rather the provision of God to allow free will choice. Each of us has the ability to choose between good or evil. To die… rather than an eternity walking and talking with God in the garden this was the choice. The choice they, Adam and Eve, made was not the correct one and resulted in the consequence of sin being brought into the world. God informed Adam was informed not to eat of the tree:
    Verses six through twenty-two are the consequences of the freewill choices that Adam and Eve made.

    6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
    The serpent is cursed above all beasts
    14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    The punishment God promises for mankind
    16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. KJV

    Ge 3:6-9. THE FALL
    Notes for Verse 6
    Verse 6. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food — Her imagination and feelings were completely won; and the fall of Eve was soon followed by that of Adam. The history of every temptation, and of every sin, is the same; the outward object of attraction, the inward commotion of mind, the increase and triumph of passionate desire; ending in the degradation, slavery, and ruin of the soul (Jas 1:15 1Jo 2:16).
    Notes for Verse 8
    Verse 8. they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden — The divine Being appeared in the same manner as formerly — uttering the well-known tones of kindness, walking in some visible form (not running hastily, as one impelled by the influence of angry feelings). How beautifully expressive are these words of the familiar and condescending manner in which He had hitherto held intercourse with the first pair.

    in the cool of the day — literally, “the breeze of the day,” the evening.

    hid themselves amongst the trees of the garden — Shame, remorse, fear — a sense of guilt — feelings to which they had hitherto been strangers disordered their minds and led them to shun Him whose approach they used to welcome. How foolish to think of eluding His notice (Ps 139:1-12).
    Ge 3:10-13. THE EXAMINATION
    Notes for Verse 10
    Verse 10. afraid, because . . . naked — apparently, a confession — the language of sorrow; but it was evasive — no signs of true humility and penitence — each tries to throw the blame on another.
    Notes for Verse 12
    Verse 12. The woman . . . gave me — He blames God [CALVIN]. As the woman had been given him for his companion and help, he had eaten of the tree from love to her; and perceiving she was ruined, was determined not to survive her [M'KNIGHT].
    Notes for Verse 13
    Verse 13. beguiled — cajoled by flattering lies. This sin of the first pair was heinous and aggravated — it was not simply eating an apple, but a love of self, dishonor to God, ingratitude to a benefactor, disobedience to the best of Masters — a preference of the creature to the Creator.
    Ge 3:14-24. THE SENTENCE
    Notes for Verse 14
    Verse 14. And the Lord God said unto the serpent — The Judge pronounces a doom: first, on the material serpent, which is cursed above all creatures. From being a model of grace and elegance in form, it has become the type of all that is odious, disgusting, and low [LE CLERC, ROSENMULLER]; or the curse has converted its natural condition into a punishment; it is now branded with infamy and avoided with horror; next, on the spiritual serpent, the seducer. Already fallen, he was to be still more degraded and his power wholly destroyed by the offspring of those he had deceived.
    Notes for Verse 15
    Verse 15. thy seed — not only evil spirits, but wicked men.

    seed of the woman — the Messiah, or His Church [CALVIN, HENGSTENBERG].

    I will put enmity between thee and the woman — God can only be said to do so by leaving “the serpent and his seed to the influence of their own corruption; and by those measures which, pursued for the salvation of men, fill Satan and his angels with envy and rage.”

    thou shalt bruise his heel — The serpent wounds the heel that crushes him; and so Satan would be permitted to afflict the humanity of Christ and bring suffering and persecution on His people.

    it shall bruise thy head — The serpent’s poison is lodged in its head; and a bruise on that part is fatal. Thus, fatal shall be the stroke which Satan shall receive from Christ, though it is probable he did not at first understand the nature and extent of his doom.
    Notes for Verse 16
    Verse 16. unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow — She was doomed as a wife and mother to suffer pain of body and distress of mind. From being the help meet of man and the partner of his affections [Ge 2:18, 23], her condition would henceforth be that of humble subjection.
    Notes for Verses 17-19
    Verses 17-19. unto Adam he said — made to gain his livelihood by tilling the ground; but what before his fall he did with ease and pleasure, was not to be accomplished after it without painful and persevering exertion.
    Notes for Verse 19
    Verse 19. till thou return unto the ground — Man became mortal; although he did not die the moment he ate the forbidden fruit, his body underwent a change, and that would lead to dissolution; the union subsisting between his soul and God having already been dissolved, he had become liable to all the miseries of this life and to the pains of hell for ever. What a mournful chapter this is in the history of man! It gives the only true account of the origin of all the physical and moral evils that are in the world; upholds the moral character of God; shows that man, made upright, fell from not being able to resist a slight temptation; and becoming guilty and miserable, plunged all his posterity into the same abyss (Ro 5:12). How astonishing the grace which at that moment gave promise of a Saviour and conferred on her who had the disgrace of introducing sin the future honor of introducing that Deliverer (1Ti 2:15).
    Notes for Verse 20
    Verse 20. Adam called his wife’s name Eve — probably in reference to her being a mother of the promised Saviour, as well as of all mankind.
    Notes for Verse 21
    Verse 21. God made coats of skins — taught them to make these for themselves. This implies the institution of animal sacrifice, which was undoubtedly of divine appointment, and instruction in the only acceptable mode of worship for sinful creatures, through faith in a Redeemer (Heb 9:22).
    Notes for Verse 22
    Verse 22. And God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us — not spoken in irony as is generally supposed, but in deep compassion. The words should be rendered, “Behold, what has become [by sin] of the man who was as one of us”! Formed, at first, in our image to know good and evil — how sad his condition now.

    and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life — This tree being a pledge of that immortal life with which obedience should be rewarded, man lost, on his fall, all claim to this tree; and therefore, that he might not eat of it or delude himself with the idea that eating of it would restore what he had forfeited, the Lord sent him forth from the garden.
    Notes for Verse 24
    Verse 24. placed . . . cherbim — The passage should be rendered thus: “And he dwelt between the cherubim at the East of the Garden of Eden and a fierce fire, or Shekinah, unfolding itself to preserve the way of the tree of life.” This was the mode of worship now established to show God’s anger at sin and teach the mediation of a promised Saviour as the way of life, as well as of access to God. They were the same figures as were afterwards in the tabernacle and temple; and now, as then, God said, “I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims” (Ex 25:22).
    —Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

    It is my prayer Chris that this helps, that in some way this may assist you in your travel through the word of God. First, that your eyes and heart will open to the wonders God has in store for you.

    Blessings,
    AV1

  30. patrick1979 Says:

    Wow. Wonderful post… even longer than mine!

    God bless you AV1!!!

  31. Sean Says:

    Wow, so much material to discuss AV1:

    “The issue here is really a simple one. The illustration just given is not only fiction, but we can hardly imagine such a scene. The evidence is the existence of the art demands the existence of an artist.”

    The argument of infinite regression would then state: if art demands the existence of an artist, then the artist also demands the existence of an artist, which demands the existence of an artists… seriously, who created god? How convenient that he’s always existed because the bible says so. Right? The bible describes a god that created the bible that describes a god that created the bible. Infinite regression and circular argument issues! Next!

    “This living breathing human being with a self-sustaining organ system and eyes more complex than any optical instrument created by man must have as its source a Creator superior to itself. Just as the artist, Michelangelo produced the work of art.
    The God of Scripture is the Superior Creator of mankind.”

    I grow tired of how many times I hear this argument. It smacks of ignorance towards the science and evidence of evolution. Evolution is even all around us in this present day. Why do you think you have to get a new flu shot each year? Checkmate.
    Evolution demonstrates that little changes over thousands of millions of years move in a productive direction governed by natural selection. Read the books, then discount evolution with your bible verses.

    “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”

    … and keep slaves, stone children that disobey their parents, stone non-virgins on their wedding day, stone people that worship false idols…

    “researches of modern science lead to a conclusion, fully accordant with the sacred history, that they are all of one species and of one family (Ac 17:26).”

    … and now modern modern science shows humans are 98.5% identical to chimpanzee …

    “Clearly, He is the Creator of mankind. Consider this, two males or two females do not produce a child. To procreate requires a male and female.”

    Indeed the evidence for such a ‘clear’ claim is obvious…. because the *bible tells you so*. In 5th grade, I learned about budding and asexual reproduction. I must conclude that you are in the 4th grade. A man + woman makes child and this is evidence of god? I’ve also heard that an elephant has 4 knees. Vis a vis, god. These types of arguments are absurd.

    I can’t do this anymore here. AVI, put on your critical thinking hat. Show us some evidence to back up your outlandish, mythical claims. That goes for all of you apologists.

    • Chris Says:

      Well said. I haven’t much of an objection to apologists, and indeed apologetics can be a very entertaining thing to practice in the context of, say, Star Trek (explain to me why the Romulans have brow ridges in the new series and not in the old, and not in the movies?), but this guy isn’t even in the realm of good, solid, intellectual apologetics.

      Also, I’m glad you answered him because frankly I didn’t have the energy. :D

  32. colin munro Says:

    Chris I enjoy all of your articles, without necessarily agreeing on all of your opinions, but that’s cool. I just think you should waste less time in trying to reason with the God Fanatics. I’m not being dismissive of their spiritual beliefs, if it works for them, fine. But when you try to reason with them you are onto a loser. ‘Reason’ is not in their vocabulary, ‘FAITH’ however is in their lexicon, and faith of course means a willingness to believe in something without any tangible proof that it exists. How can you win such an argument? You can quote Dawkins, Einstein, Harris, to prove their is no God, and your opponents comeback will always be the same ‘I’m not listening to reason, because I know there is a God, because I believe in him, because I have faith.’

    There’s simply no arguing with the gullible.

    • Chris Says:

      Well, part of my contention is that most people who believe in God don’t really believe. They just think they do and have a vague hope that after they die, everything will be alright. People like that can indeed be reasoned with, though not always successfully. And anyhow it’s my job to bring light into dark places. :)


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